Arsenal At The World Cup #2: Jack Kelsey & Dave Bowen 1958

Sweden 1958 and Pele was launched upon an unsuspecting world, his hat-trick in the final entering into football folklore. It was also the only tournament to date where all four home nations qualified for the finals. England had qualified undefeated in their campaign, eliminating the Republic of Ireland and Denmark. Northern Ireland went into their final game against Italy in Belfast knowing that victory would see them qualify; a 2 – 1 victory sent them to the top of their group. Despite a 4 – 1 thrashing in Madrid, Scotland qualified ahead of the Spaniards and Swiss.

The Welsh seemed destined to miss out, finishing as runners-up to Czechoslovakia but politics intervened. Israel had been drawn to play Indonesia, Egypt and Sudan. The former pair withdrew in the CAF second round whilst the Sudanese pulled out in the final round. Fifa, ever the compromise artists, decided that a European runner-up should play-off against Israel. When Belguim declined, Wales stepped in and duly won both legs 2 – 0, reaching their first and so far only, World Cup finals.

Drawn alongside hosts Sweden, Mexico and Hungary, the Welsh believed the could qualify. For Hungary 1954 seemed a lifetime away. Soviet Union military crushed the 1956 revolution and many of the ‘Magnificient Magyars‘ had left the country. The 1958 squad containing just six players who had travelled to the 1954 tournament.

For Wales, it was their ‘classic’ line-up. In goal, Jack Kelsey was outstanding, a world class goalkeeper who made 352 appearances for Arsenal between 1949 and 1962 before going on to run the club shop until the 1980s. Kelsey is regarded as one of the best goalkeepers ever to don the Arsenal jersey, his performances in Sweden widely held as the reason for Welsh progression.

Often overlooked in this campaign, in Arsenal terms, was Dave Bowen. Having started his career at Northampton, Bowen joined Arsenal in 1951, going on to make 162 appearances for the club. Like Kelsey, he was part of the London XI which was defeated 8-2 on aggregate by Barcelona in the first Fairs Cup Final.  Bowen was to win nineteen full caps for his country, the 1958 World Cup finals were the pinnacle with the Arsenal man named captain despite the presence of other, more famous names.

For Arsenal Football Club, it was the first time that a current player had appeared in the finals. Laurie Scott had travelled with the ill-fated England team to Brazil in 1950 whilst future Gunners Mel Charles and Don Howe would also be in Sweden.

Under the current system, Wales would not have qualified for the Quarter Finals. They drew all three group games against Mexico, Hungary and Sweden, one of the two games that the hosts failed to win all tournament, the other being a 2 – 5 reverse in the final. Finishing level with Hungary, this was a time when equality of points meant a play-off. The Hungarians had scored more and a better goal average. It mattered not. They would have progressed today. As it was, their main objective was to stop John Charles in the play-off and hope for the best.

When Tichy scored just after half an hour, they achieved the second objective. The first was to prove costly for Wales, Charles suffering an injury that would end his participation in the competition thanks to overly robust defending by the Hungarians. Many believe that had he been fit, the Brazilians might not have progressed. That they did was despite the best efforts of Kelsey. The level of his performance can be gauged by the fact that a nation not noted for appreciating their own goalkeepers called him “The Cat With Magnetic Claws“.

Wales 2 – 1 Hungary

Wales 0 – 1 Brazil

Read more about this endeavour by Wales in In the Shadow of a Giant and King John.

138 thoughts on “Arsenal At The World Cup #2: Jack Kelsey & Dave Bowen 1958

  1. usama says:

    wow personal best for me!! i think bigbrovar has this fixed with YW!!!!!!!!

  2. LimparAssist says:

    So John Charles was a centreback as well as a centre forward? Bit like Dion Dublin then…

    Was there a World Cup in which Scotland qualified, but they’d lost to England in an earlier qualifying game so they said ‘We’ll only go if we beat the English…’ The game was set up and Scotland were beaten but England said, ‘Oh come on, don’t be silly, you can still come…’ but the Scots said ‘No. We f*cked it up. We’re not going anywhere… you doss English so-and-sos…’ ?

    Or have I just dreamt that up?

  3. Gooner Al says:

    When Jack Kelsey was in charge of the Arsenal shop he was a right miserable f****r.Bit like Blakey in On The Buses

  4. Hark says:

    Wales in the world cup.So funny.It will never happen again.They will always get hard groups(Italy and Germany in recent years) so they have no chance.Even though they have produced great players over the years Giggs Rush Southall etc

  5. Hark says:

    Joe Cole went to my old school.He is an Islington boy and was brought up a Gooner

  6. LimparAssist says:

    Oh for fuck sake, Capello. You fucking dickhead.

  7. Silver Gunner says:

    Anyone worried about what this will do to Walcotts already fragile confidence?

    This could either be the making or destruction of him.

  8. mingus says:

    So that’s official then. Now I don’t think Wenger will have too much trouble lifting Theo come the new season. He will be up for it and raring to go, giving his all for the Arsenal, with a strong focus on how he can improve further still. England’s loss will be our gain. No problem.

  9. Matty Boy says:

    Hark – I played against Joe Cole as a kid in Islington and what struck me most about him was the great attitude he had. Despite being repeatedly kicked and tripped he always played with a smile.

    He was a very skillful player even at the age of 13, I feel it is slowly being coached out of him at Chelsea, which is a shame.

  10. mingus says:

    No destruction, Silver gunner. We will be there to back him all the way next season. 20 goals from Theo 2010/2011

  11. Silver Gunner says:

    but we still dont know…….

    Just let us know the full list already this is beyond a fooking joke.

  12. FunGunner says:

    Poor Theo, he must be devastated to get this far and not make the final cut. He is paying the price for Capello and Pearce forcing him to play in both the senior and U21 campaigns last summer, against Wenger’s advice. He came back crocked and was unable to get a proper season.

  13. Silver Gunner says:

    mingus i hope you are right but if the reports are to be believed i feel dissapointed by Capello after his heroics in Croatia.

    FFS and heskey if that donkey goes i will be even more pissed.

  14. deano says:

    What the fuck.



    Its times like this I feel like I know nothing about football.

    I hope England don’t get out of their fucking group.

  15. 1 loose cannon says:

    So theo doesn’t make the world. I really thought he would be the secret weapon for england to come on and change the game. I admit he is not a starter but definitely an impact player, he did on many occasion for Arsenal. How can the likes of heskey, Swp, lennon who have contributed nothing so far.

  16. Limestonegunner says:

    unlucky, theo. Maybe this is what he needs–he has to concentrate on club first. England will come if he shows success at Arsenal. Until then it has been a big distraction and a great deal of pressure.

  17. deano says:

    This England team under Capello has had 1 single highlight worth talking about….and that was the win in Zagreb with Walcott’s brilliant hat-trick.

    France-lost against
    Spain-lost against
    Brazil-lost against

    Flattering to decieve. I am fuming.

  18. deano says:

    Come on Theo next season show this sorry England outfitt what they missed out on in South Africa.

    Wenger will know what to say to Theo to turn this into a possitive.

    I’m not a manager…and I don’t propose to understand the balance of the squad more than Capello, but I just cannot for the life of me understand why they would leave out one of their better players.

    Beggars belief.

  19. FunGunner says:

    He’ll be at his peak next time around – bound to be in the squad unless he’s injured.

  20. LimparAssist says:

    As an Arsenal fan I can see the positives in Theo not going – this England team really are shit and the way Theo gets isolated and underused on the right wing doesn’t do his game any favours. One less player to get injured at the World Cup.

    As an Englishman I am very pissed off with Capello. Awful decision.

  21. deano says:

    What has SWP done recently?

    Did theo come off the bench and score against Barcellona?

    I dont care what anyone says or writes, he was Englands best player against Mexico.

    He did more than enough to warrant his place on the plane.

    SWP and Joe fucking Cole going is a real kick in the teeth for the boy.

    End of Rant.

  22. deano says:

    I agree Limpar.

    It’s just that this is going to realy hurt the kid. He’ll have every justification to feel that the world is against him about now.

    And as an Englishman I have to say…….COME ON HOLLAND

  23. trevor Hill says:

    I think he can run very fast and, er……

  24. john says:

    deano your a prick fuck off to holland then.

  25. deano says:


    OK I’ll fuck off to Holland, whilst you sit in the rain watching a bunch of over-egoed moraly bankrupt criminals play anti football and get knocked out by the first team thats above average.

    How does that sound?

  26. Yogi's Warrior says:

    For the player it is obviously disappointing but not entirely surprising either.

    He has not been consistent this season, primarily due to injury, and Lennon has better statistics than Walcott, ie more assists.

    I think it is indicative that Heskey or Crouch is going to start every game and Capello needs someone who can cross consistently.

    Walcott does not play in a team that uses that plays this way every week so in that respect, his exclusion makes sense.


  27. deano says:


    I suppose when you put it like that.

    But Shaun-Wright-Phillips? Realy?

  28. john says:

    or you get behind your country regardless of some cunts who play for them.

    we could of had loads of england players but arsene chose another way.

  29. LimparAssist says:

    Yup. That does make sense. I think Lennon has widely been considered above Theo in the right wing pecking order for some time. But SWP? Naaah. Bad decision. Theo’s end of season form was very good for us, while Shaun was being kept out of the City side by Adam Johnson.

  30. trevor Hill says:

    wb. no mate. i’m over here

  31. Matty Boy says:

    It speaks volumes that Adam Johnson almost made it into the England squad, almost entirely because he is left footed. Why has a country like England not produced a decent left footed midfielder since…..I don’t know when.

    I agree with YW, except to say regardless of his crossing ability, if Walcott was left footed, he would be amongst the first names in the squad. Are we seriously relying on a defender to produce all our width and crossing from the left?

  32. Silver Gunner says:

    Its high time walcott stopped getting seen as a right winger which he is not he is a strike the problem is he will never play as striker at arsenal as wenger has shown no sign of wanting to move him infield.

    Shame cause like Deano said he consistenly beat him full back against mexico but was poor against Japan. But i dont care what anyone says he is a better finisher than SWP and lennon.

    Lets hope wenger gives him the pep talk that he will undoubtedly need.

  33. Finsbury says:

    Always thought that Lennon would start over TW14, StevieGBH or Cole for England on the left.

    (So Cole didn’t go to the Grove? Who was the last AFC first team player to come from Highbury Grove School? I have no idea.)

    I thought Lennon was one of Englands better players last time out, a shame he was dropped back to the bench for Goldenballs, but not surprising.

    But as expained above by others,
    SWP over TW14?

    A dodgy one on the Capello Index.
    No doubt, it’s a stinker.

  34. Hark says:

    The truth is when everone is fit Theo does not get in Arsenals starting line up.He’s an impact sub for Arsenal and thats it.I have been disappointed in the 4 years at the club he still hasnt got a football brain when playing with such great players.Yes he has pace but his final ball is poor.Even though he is a Spud we have to hold our hands up and say Lennon deserves to go to the world cup on form

  35. Finsbury says:

    I’d have taken TW14 over Heskey.
    He’s scored more goals!

    That’s because he is a forward.

    Catastrophists will now attempt to apply the logic that AW is to blame for Theo’s failure, for playing him on the ‘whinge’ when he’s not a ‘proper whinger’.

    Unfortunately, they’ll be proven wrong again. TW14 will play as a ‘forward’.

  36. Yogi's Warrior says:

    Silver Gunner

    Walcott will always be seen as a right winger until he plays centrally for Arsenal. No point in getting bent out of shape over it; ’tis done and that is that.


  37. Silver Gunner says:

    Well i will be supporting england but i really feel we have missed trick here.

    And why take 3 keepers that is just a waste if you ask me, better you have an additional out field player.

  38. deano says:


    1. If everyones fit Walcott MAY still satrt for Arsenal. Depends who we play.

    2. Hasn’t got a football brain? What does that even mean? Did you watch the season before last? Before Walcott was stopped by injury? He was in inspired form for long periods and still only 20.

    3. Lennon is marginaly more consistent. He’s also just as injury prone….And it only seems a year or so ago now when he had dissapeared, people adamant that he was just pace and nothing more. Things change quickly don’t they Hark….so lets support him and he will get better.

    He has desire, a good attitude on and off field, respect and humility. Plus bags of talent. He should be going to World Cup 2010, no two ways about it.

    But I’m convinced the ridiculous nature of the snub will SPUR him on.

    har har

  39. deano says:

    Plus Michael Carrick has been picked. The world has gone mad.

  40. Paul N says:

    Your time will come Walcott, be encouraged.

    Forward line looks rather weak!

  41. LimparAssist says:

    Quality, deano.

    No football brain. Pfft.

    In your face, Hark, in your face.

  42. Paul N says:

    The problem I see with him not being sent is that he offers something that no one else has, his speek obviously. He could prove the difference maker in the end of matches.

    We will see how it pans out.

  43. LimparAssist says:

    Fred Trueman might remark to Capello, “…wasted on thee, lad, wasted on thee.”

  44. GoonerinLA says:

    I had been figuring out how I was going to suppress chanting “Theo, Theo, Theo” while sporting my USA jersey at the Royal Bakofeng stadium next week as he put one or two by us, but I guess I won’t have that problem. Still can’t figure out why it was supposedly TW14’s fault that Rooney either ran offside or failed to get onto his crosses against Mexico. I’d take Theo over Lennon or SWP any day of the week, particularly since Theo is the only one who could cover for Rooney in an emergency, and would take two of those three (plus Johnson) over keeping so many center backs, holding mids, keepers, and Heskey. Odd selections.

  45. earflow says:

    What is the likelyhood Walcott can even make the Arsenal team next season?

  46. deano says:


    the same likelihood as you coming out with something un-intelligent.

  47. Flint McCullough says:

    I think all 4 home nations went to the 1958 WC in Sweden. The only time this has happened.

    Wales & NI reached the 1/4 finals from the group stage.

    Jack Kelsey was my first favorite & by all reports literally kept Wales in the game against Brazil. No one could catch a ball like Jack.

    My biggest memory of Dave Bowen was him sitting on his arse after 1 of the 3 goals lowly Northampton, his old club, scored to knock us out of the cup.

    John Charles was an equally good CB or CF but I never saw him play, in fact most of his English league football was in the old 2nd Division. He was a star player for Juventus for many years, mainly as a CF.

    Theo has not had a consistent run of games since joining us. If he had managed to keep fit he would have made much more progress. For me, he has never been really ready for international football. His pace makes him an ideal impact sub but Capello has decided that was not enough. I don’t disagree with him.

    Perhaps this will take a bit of the pressure, of expectation, off him, so that we can see more of what we know he is capable of but not seen often enough.

  48. Gunner4Ever says:

    Well, I guess now I have no reason to watch England games in the world cup.

    I’m not disappointed Theo was not picked up. Wenger told him before, he needs to concentrate on his club first. In the past he put country first and look what happened to him? Overplayed, injured, then omitted from the National team.

    I hope he learned a lesson.

  49. mingus says:

    I agree about the “taking pressure off Theo” observation. And I think it won’t be a difficult piece of management for AW to guide Theo into the right state-of-mind. Think about it, disappointing? Yes. End of the world? Not by a long way. Theo will still become an Arsenal great in a few years.

  50. Bill says:

    I have no doubt TW14 will be one of the stars of world cup 2014.

  51. Gooneraside says:


    Great article. I watched and cheered at (along with our other lads), Jack Kelsey before he said “i ‘ate you, Butler”.(Thanks for the laugh, Gooner Al).

    Shame about Theo. At least, he won’t get injured.

  52. 1 loose cannon says:

    Flint. I don’t agree. Walcott should’ve gone he is devastating against teams who play high defensive line. Specially last 20 minutes of the game. I would include him in the squad instead of Upson who in my opinion is a waste of space. And how about heskey what is the point ? Walcott is the only player who can offer something different when things are not going well. Capello was sacked by madrid because he plays dull football. He has put together a bunch of old players, no pace no excitement just dull. A lot of slow defenders will delighted walcott is not going .

  53. Bouldy's Friend says:

    We have not produced a single national player for years but Arsene Wenger continues to develop players for the French national team.

    May be its time French fans pay his wages.

  54. Bouldy's Friend says:

    No reason to support England? Since all of you wants Arsene to bring in French players season after season, why not support the cheating French.

  55. dupsffokcuf says:

    Emile William Ivanhoe Heskey, Englan striker.

    58 games, 7 goals. Some striker.

  56. shotta-gunna says:

    SSN had an interesting stat; the average age of this English squad is 28 plus years vs 26 plus in the last tournament. It speaks a lot to Capello’s conservatism. From my observation, the more the stakes get higher, the more likelier we are to see the true Capello rather than the media-inspired image of a uber coach. Walcott may not be the polished gem but in the past two games he was always doubled up by the opposing sides defenders; that to be is a better measure of the threat he posed than the hype of the media. Last Saturday Wright-Phillips was not treated with similar respect by the Japanese. But Capello it seems has decided to go with the standard, but hitherto unsuccessful, tactic of choosing someone who can lump it in the direction of the heads of Crouch and Heskey when the game is on the line.
    Somehow I think Capello will be found out in this world cup.

  57. Bouldy's Friend says:

    He only buys French players and don’t care whether good or bad. Once French, they always get in.

  58. Arsenalkabisa says:

    theo has only himself to blame. Arsene warned him at the beggining of the season not to play for both senior and under 21.. He didnt listen and suffered poor form instead through out the season.

    The same seniors team threw him out.

  59. dupsffokcuf says:

    Arshavin is French is he? What about Chamakh? Are you even an Arsenal fan?

  60. Arsenalkabisa says:

    at least now I have no reason to focus on John Terry, Ashley Cole and Spurs..

    Hope England dont make it past the group stage…

  61. dupsffokcuf says:

    I almost forgot that other French signing Thomas Vermaelen.

  62. Delia-----Block 112 says:

    What a day,no Theo in WC Squad and Roger has just lost at Roland Garros. With Cesc a lost cause,
    I’m relying on RVP to cheer me up in S.Africa and it wouldn’t suprise me at all if CV puts on a show for Mexico.
    Nice to read of Jack Kelsey, who was a real world class keeper . I have great memories of his heroic displays in a not very good Arsenal team in my early days at Highbury. Oh that Arsene could find us a keeper out of the Kelsey mould this Summer, not a big guy by any means but I thought of him as the equivalent of a rubber ball
    bouncing around his area and great in the air.

  63. dupsffokcuf says:

    If England perform like they did against Japan I cannot see them getting very far in the WC.

  64. Bouldy's Friend says:


    Its easy, support the cheating French.

    I’m an Arsenal fan but hate this Frenchie, Frenchie shit that has been with us for years.

  65. OneOfUs says:

    It’s almost as if people who aren’t fans of the club see the way we play and say, “We want some of that in the national side”. AW has added prestige to the Arsenal name, and our young players have learn to cope with the expectation.

    I suppose we can hope that the burden on Theo’s shoulders will be lessened slightly after this summer; it’s likely that we’ll have three or four (maybe more) England prospects in the squad next season.

  66. Bouldy's Friend says:


    France will only get far if they cheat again.

  67. dupsffokcuf says:

    Bouldy’s Friend if you were an Arsenal fan you would support the team. Clearly you do not support the team so how can you be a fan?

  68. LimparAssist says:

    No, Bouldy, he doesn’t. Stop embarrassing yourself.

    Upson and Cole are two players in Capello’s squad of 23 that Arsene Wenger signed and coached. They are Arsenal products, esp. Cashley.

    Pennant, Bentley, Jeffers… all English, all signed by Arsene Wenger… all given their chance… none of them took it. There are many more examples.

    Look at our current squad. Gibbs, Eastmond, Wilshere, Lansbury, JET, and Theo Walcott…
    and a bunch more coming through.

    Arsene Wenger has done more for English football than any other manager in the modern era.

    I don’t think you’re an Arsenal man at all. Very suspect.

    And speaking of the English right-wing…

  69. OneOfUs says:

    If only Howard’s parents had remembered their French letter…

  70. Frank says:

    RvP is looking good in Oranje v Ghana

  71. LimparAssist says:

    Thanks, Frank. Great tip. Beautiful football from the Dutch.

  72. BillikenGooner says:

    If it wasn’t for Cesc-gate, I’d have more of a positive feeling for Spain in the WC, but after the last month.. f them and their 80% Barca squad.

    No matter how many Arsenal players are on France, I just could never bring myself to root for them.

    I’ve always liked the Dutch, so it’s RVP and the Oranje in South Africa for me.

  73. dupsffokcuf says:

    Good football being played by the Dutch.

  74. Arsenalkabisa says:

    SWP over Theo is what baffles me. But its Ineresting how Capello just bought a stick 4 the media to whip him with.

    After Englands brave but inadequate performance, they’ll blame him for leaving Theo out…

  75. Gunner4Ever says:

    Hey Bouldy….Nice Italian manager for the English National team by the way

  76. Gunner4Ever says:

    England is 1 of 10 teams who are managed by a foreign manager in the 32 Nations going to the world cup.

    Most of the 10 teams are from Africa & South America. I think the only other team from Europe is Greece.

  77. DukeGoonem says:

    If i was Theo i’d be kicking down Wenger’s door asking to be played upfront or i’d be off. Wtf is going on with Wenger refusing to play Theo in his natural position.

  78. wung says:

    Well finally when they day comes in the WC when england will need that speed and that “impact substitute”. the x factor that can change a game. We all know he can. On that day, when the game is not going our way, when we have suffered a few knocks and a couple of players are out injured. when we need that little extra push of power and explosion. On that day, when Capello looks over his shoulder wondering who he could throw out there to give us that extra little push to win the game, and all hes got is SWP.
    The man will regret this for a long time. Not because Theo is so exceptional, but because SWP is so UNexceptional and does not have any tricks up his sleeve. Theo has speed atleast. SWPs footballing brain is even less developed than theos, his club mate A.Johnson that snatched his place at City was left home to. Thats like mad!

    It is a real shame Gibbs is injured though, im preatty sure he would have been on that plane if he was fit.

  79. DukeGoonem says:


    Where you from?????

  80. Frank says:

    Superb penalty from RvP in the 87th min. 4-1 Hollland. Both sides look great.

  81. LimparAssist says:

    Substitution now please.
    *signals to the bench*

  82. 1 loose cannon says:

    Capello simply bottled it and was scared to select untested players instead he went for ageing players with experience there are no surprises in his selection apart from Walcott been deopped. almost every pundit said he should’ve taken him and come on as impact sub. There is simply not one special player in the squad who can offer something different. Funnily enough Walcott had an impact in most big games he played, I can go back to that run against Liverpool, scored against Barcelona and set up the other goal in the second leg, scored in the League cup final against Chelsea, scored a hat trick against Coroatia in a crucial game. What did Heskey and SWP offer to England? nothing. I was certain he would do the same in the world cup gainst a big team like brazil or Spain, the likes of Lucio, Cnavaro, Puyol will be absolutely delighted they don’t have to face him in the final 20 minutes of a game when their legs have gone. Big blow for England.

  83. Frank says:

    Ghana are obvious;y on their travels to get in the practice but they look strong and I reckon they will give any team a run for their money in SA. Holland..well..Holland are my favourites. A little light at the back but they have packed their squad with creative players.

    Capello should have taken Theo….and at least one less centre half. Look forward to two banks of four when England play. Theo is better off out of it.

  84. 1 loose cannon says:

    we will see how it will benefit him . It will either motivate him and work his socks off for Arsenal or he will lose confidence and end up going on laon somewhere. I hope that will not be the case. I’m sure Wenger will have a word with him. He is still young and has at least 2 or 3 world cups to go to if he does will.

  85. Arsenalkabisa says:

    @Duke. Am not an English man hence my alligiance to the 3 Lions was only through Theo. I find England to be a very classless footballing nation.

    I prefer attack and flair, other than huff and puff.

    Am from Africa, Kenya.

  86. LimparAssist says:

    I agree with all that, 1lc. Although in Bastos, Criscito and Capdevilla – all those aging centrehalves you mention have very attacking leftbacks playing next to them. More’s the pity, Walcott up against guys like that would’ve made for quite a spectacle. Walcott would’ve skinned them just like he did that Barcelona leftback Maxwell. It’s a big shame if you ask me. Although having said that it’d be a miracle if we make it far enough to face Italy, Spain or Brazil.

  87. trevor Hill says:

    slendid TW goal thingy earlier.
    emphasises the point i think. he can run very fast.
    shame there were not goals enough for. say, 15 minutes or so.

  88. 1 loose cannon says:

    true, i don’t expect anything with this england team Capello has one thing in mind. Play Crouch hoof the ball, plan B replace Crouch with heskey hoof the ball and hope for the best. Ball possession is almost non existent and we’ll simply struggle once we meet teams with creativity and flair.

  89. Frank says:

    Theo had no idea that his place in the England squad was in the balance. What a prick Capello has turned out to be….what a complete prick.

  90. Frank says:

    I look forward to your 15 minutes or more compilation of the highlights of SWPs and Aaron Lennon’s international career, trevor Hill….or whatever your other names are.

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