Arsène spoke after the Montepellier match of his pride in the record of qualifying for the Champions League and progressing to the knockout stage for the 13th consecutive season. Indeed it is an outstanding achievement considering the fact that in only two of those seasons, Arsenal qualified for the competition itself as champions. That Arsenal as a club were able to participate identifies the paradox: The Champions League containing more teams who have not won the previous season’s domestic title in their homeland than have. Not particularly a league of champions, is it?
That is not Wenger’s fault. He did not make the rules and whilst his professionalism avariciously grasps the opportunity, the sentimental heart must equally be tinged with sadness that there is nothing magisterial about the tournament. Uefa created a money-making monster of which it has all but lost control hence their craven capitulation to the clubs when the question of international friendlies arose. Nothing will change, no looking back but as a tournament, it lacks that special feeling it had two decades ago.
Europe has long been the club’s Achilles Heel, Arsène’s as well. The consistency of qualification is a record to be proud of but overall, the performance when in the respective tournaments pales by comparison to his domestic achievements. Two losing finals in his tenure at the club seems scant reward for qualifying for either competition fifteen seasons in a row. Of course, there are clubs who during that time have not reached any finals but of those considered to be big clubs in the European game, Arsenal have amongst the poorest record with just a Fairs Cup and a Cup Winners Cup to show for their efforts.
Arguably club competitions came along two decades too late for Arsenal. The halcyon days of the 1930s had long passed when Hanot’s idea came to fruition. Equally, being The Establishment Club, it is not unreasonable to assume that Arsenal would have followed Chelsea’s lead and not entered the Champions Cup had they qualified in the 1950s. I doubt Chelsea thought they would have to wait another half-century for a second opportunity to participate following the board’s decision not to capitalise on their 1954-55 League title, not entering at the behest of the English footballing establishment.
Bertie Mee qualified for Europe in successive seasons (even if 1969-70 was via the back door), Neill did as well. George Graham suffered most with the ban on English clubs playing in Europe affecting more than half of his reign. Had it not been in place, the likelihood is that he would have qualified for club competition in every season of his tenure. As it is, Arsenal’s record under Arsène is unparalleled in the club’s history but the playing field is not level. Those who point to qualifying for the Champions League specifically never mention the change to the entry criteria laid down by Uefa. Had that not changed, been consistent with previous decades or bans rescinded, Graham would have been in the same category.
Despite those opportunities, he has never been able to bring home either of the trophies remaining. It is something which is noticeable by its absence on his CV. Wenger’s record is:
| Season | Competition | Round |
| 1997-98 | UEFA Cup | 1 |
| 1998-99 | Champions League | Group |
| 1999-00 | Champions League | Group |
| 1999-00 | UEFA Cup | Runners-up |
| 2000-01 | Champions League | Quarter-Finals |
| 2001-02 | Champions League | 2nd Group Phase |
| 2002-03 | Champions League | 2nd Group Phase |
| 2003-04 | Champions League | Quarter-Finals |
| 2004-05 | Champions League | 2nd Round |
| 2005-06 | Champions League | Runners-Up |
| 2006-07 | Champions League | 2nd Round |
| 2007-08 | Champions League | Quarter-Finals |
| 2008-09 | Champions League | Semi-Finals |
| 2009-10 | Champions League | Quarter-Finals |
| 2010-11 | Champions League | 2nd Round |
| 2011-12 | Champions League | Quarter-Finals |
Arsenal have been eliminated by some good teams in this time; some distinctly average ones as well. When you look back, 2003-04 is surely the biggest regret. The semi-finals contained four of the weakest teams to have competed at that stage at any point in the tournaments history by comparison; the Champions League was there for the taking yet Arsenal contrived to lose to Chelsea at home. Paris was a heroic failure, a bittersweet taste of what might be. The problem for Arsène is that the elite clubs in Europe are investing heavily in chasing the dream and whilst they cannot all win it, insurmountable barriers are being erected in front of Arsenal. Perhaps the club’s true standing is in the top sixteen in Europe and no more?
A lot is said of the club lacking ambition, about fourth being the sum total of the desire for the season. Ambition strikes me as the wrong word but for the life of me, I am not sure which one to use in its place. Stating that all Arsenal want is to qualify for the Champions League is incorrect; that is the minimum expectation which is why achieving that is not heralded by supporters in the same way that the manager likes to publicly but privately, his disappointment will be deeper. Yes, we’ve been spoiled but when you achieve something regularly, it is not longer a treat but a benchmark set by previous performance. When you achieve the minimum, people naturally want more, expect progression. Will that come in Europe whilst domestic achievements stagnate? It is hard to make that case but such is the perversity of professional sport, it would be of no surprise if this season’s Arsenal went one further than their equally unsung 2006 predecessors.
’til Tomorrow.
Stop being a nut. What teams do you want to have on the champions league?
Champions league is about the best teams in Europe facing off against each other and not only league winners.
That’s the beauty of champions league if the title isn’t taken too literary.
More disappointing for Arsène than for us I suspect. I think it was only 2-3 years ago that we went out at a relatively early stage to the eventual winners (Barcelona – the year of RvP’s infamous red card). No shame in that – especially as we earlier beat them at home. As you well know, a knockout tournament (which this is from the QF on) doesn’t really establish the hierarchy of European clubs. Nor does winning the trophy last year establish Chelsea as the top club in Europe – far from it as far as I’m concerned.
Sorry, from the last 16 onwards it is a knockout tournament.
After so many years of Hogging the ACLF , it’s occurred to me that YW would make the perfect assistant to Wenger. What with the superior football knowledge coupled with an acute logical mind. Above all a genuine love of the club.
“..it would be of no surprise if this season’s Arsenal went one further than their equally unsung 2006 predecessors.”
..sounds good to me,
morning YW
Would Arsenal have won the Champions League by now if Dennis Bergkamp had been able to get on a plane ?
Vick
Did you really read the entire post and come up with that gem?
You shouldn’t throw nuts in glass houses, you know.
YW
Porto 2004 – beat Monaco to win CL
Liverpool 2005 – Finish 5th in the PL and win the CL
Arsenal 2006 – Pinch 4th on last day of the season yet reach CL final
Liverpool 2007- 3rd (on GD from us in 4th)with a 68pnts – CL final
Chelsea 2012 – Finish 6th in PL with a mere 64pnts and win the CL
There’s enough evidence there to suggest that winning the CL, or at lest reaching the final, is something that we should always feel is possible, regardless of how we are faring domestically.
Fuck it, let’s win the CL!!!
COYG
Realism.
Hmmm, Bernard, someone just equated realism as ‘doomerism’. Wowzers…
16 yr-old Indio….training with us
http://hereisthecity.com/2013/02/11/ld-is-this-16-year-old-the-next-cesc-fabregas/?
ooh, nice free kick.
fingers crossed (pans out better than Wellington)
beating Bayern would surely raise the belief among gooners…shoot Nigeria did it, why can’t Arsenal?
COYG, lets win the damn CL !
Not ambition?
That sounds right but we are looking for another word, aren’t we?
I’ve always felt that the CL is a total misnomer by including teams who are NOT the champions of their homeland. Even though this would have constantly left out Arsenal from the competition.
As usual, UEFA and money come into the reckoning and in consequence the qualification is gradually being extended and even a second string Europa Cup is now in place.
While competition throughout Europe can do nothing but good for the game and for the nations participating, the format must be put on a proper footing.
In my view, the Champions League should either mean what it says, OR, a new competition should be introduced for the teams reaching a set position in each country’s major league.
YW – Thought prevoking write up. I agree about the tag of ambition. Our ambition is to obviously win anything we enter; the minimum requirement is to finish 4th in the lge. We are amitious as any club, but more conservative with the means that we use, to attempt to reach that ambition.
MGK – One that strikes me about all the clubs that you have listed; they were all difficult to break down and score against. For me, we are capable of winning the CL, but are in all liklihood to erratic to do so. We are as likly to beat Munich as we are to ship three or four goals against some average team in the next round.
@Goonerandy,
Your comment to MGK is a timely reminder that the would-be Arsenal fan must be prepared to expect the odd defeat clutched from the jaws of victory AND vice versa.
In these stressfull times I firmly believe all potential Arsenal fans should first undergo a medical, with special attention being paid to the likelihood of coronaries during matches.
For several years I have had a feeling our next trophy would be European rather than domestic – the fates are this aligned.
As for Arsene’s first European foray ending in a first round exit in the UEFA Cup that is a bit harsh. Wasn’t he appointed on the day Monchengladbach put us out ?
Heh, that is not a bad idea. Some sort of screening process as you go through the gates into the Emirates.
Very interesting read on English fotball.
http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/archives/27145
Desi – It seem like just a rant to me mate. He has not really said anything to make you think about the subject.
It stands to reason that most of the match fixing was done in Eastern Europe. The officals are on a lot less money there (so easier to bribe) and the game is not regulated as much, nor under such a spotlight as in the PL. And a bet is a bet; you don’t need a high profile game to make money. If anything, a betting syndicate would be better off avoiding high profile games and names.
YW. I was trying to be more enigmatic than Bobby Gee but now, unlike him, I will try to expand on my comment.
Arsenal is an ambitious club, as are the supporters, in that we all want to win everything. Every team put out is capable of winning every game it plays. We don’t even play for a draw. That’s ambition.
The realism comes in, in as much as the management knows that we do not have unlimited funds to buy the best players around at the end of each season. The club has a squad of very good players and is continuously lookin to buy or develop exceptional players to improve the squad.
As a paid up member of the anti doomers I would say that realists leaven their ambition with common sense. Doomers, on the other hand, leaven their ambition with a fear of failure. To avoid actual disappointment they get their disappointment in first.
Arsenal won’t win the CL this season. Wenger is not tactically good enough to realise when his team is not good enough. Chelsea won the CL by parking the bus. Wenger will never do that he always plays his team in the same way.
‘it would be of no suprise if this season’s Arsenal went one further than their equally unsung 2006 predecessors’ Yogi well said,for me this will be a dream come through,in football anything is possible..ARSENAL CHAMPIONS OF EUROPE 2013 is possible,lets dream on….
Good write up YW. I think all that should be done with the champions league format is a rebranding to call it something along the lines of “european super league” there is no way we can go back to the original European cup format.
We will need to defend well and play incisive counter attacking football in both legs, but if we get past bayern and its a big if then I believe anything is possible.
No Surprise if this team went one further than the beaten Finalists of 2006? Football is perverse, but not THAT perverse!
Strictly speaking ACLF is not where I should be posting the following, but then I don’t know where the most appropriate place is. I just want to get something of my chest.
During my tea breaks I scan the headlines in the Arsenal NewsNow blog aggregator. I click on a few articles, mostly from the media such as the Guardian, Independent, Telegraph etc., and generally ignore most blogs, except of course ACLF, because I couldn’t care less for reading groundless opinion. However, I am regularly irritated by the headlines that appear from Arsenal News Review. Today for example, there are two: “Celtic heroes take on mighty Juventus” and “Don’t worry, Rafael will stop Ronaldo”. He does this with increasing frequency. I cannot understand why any Arsenal focussed site would have non-Arsenal headlines. I think he enjoys provoking pro-Wenger Arsenal supporters and surrounds himself with those who wish to see the back of Wenger and the current board. Fine, if that is what you believe but don’t be insolent and contemptuous in the process.
In the past I regularly read the offerings of Myles Palmer as a necessary reminder that there is an alternative view to my own which may well be through ‘rose tinted glasses’. I found Palmer’s writing to be clear, concise, intelligent, plausible and insightful but increasingly arrogant, conceited, manipulative, nasty and technically racist. I don’t know what his motives are because he has stated clearly at times that he is not a gooner. Did he jump onto the Wenger bandwagon during the early, exciting years leading to the ‘Invincibles’ by writing a biography of Wenger to supplement his income from music journalism? (Incidentally, I consider his book on Wenger as one of the poorest around). No, I think he is being manipulative and enjoys the adulation he gets from his readers. He rarely posts comments that disagree with him. He has a get out clause: “it’s only football” and on this we both agree.
Myles Palmer could make your eyes bleed with some of the tripe he posts. I think he just does most of it for a reaction. The man is a bit of a bufoon.
fucking top post.
i doubt very much some will like the suggestion of graham potentially being in the same category as wenger, we were crap under him after all.
as for the talk of ambition, i dont really know what word we are looking for but all we need to do is look at the questions posed on arse.com last night to see how much this club likes to spin things.
what sort of fucking questions are they when you are still in 2 cups and are 4 points off 4th with 3 months to go..
what happened to winning the cl? or winning a domestic and finishing top 4? so yes i would question the ambition
as for clubs pumping money into their teams to try win? this is too true, but not all have unlimited funds..as pointed out the CL league is a money spinner so expect teams to be stronger when theyve qualified for it a few years…
and when youve achieved 15 years of it on the trot one assumes youve made some serious monies from it to reinvest.which to some extent i think we have but when you consider the players weve had to sell, the money we have in the bank and the wages to amount of players to choose from ratio, it appears to be another one of the clubs achilles heels how weve attempted to compete with the resources weve had. weve basically pissed alot of it up the wall and handicapped ourselves..
as far as winning it this year goes, i think we can..we have the firepower to hurt anyone. it just depends if we take our league inconsistencies into the knockout phases against the very top teams..
we cant defend at home in europe like we do at home in the league..weve been shit and those away goals can kill you.
id like to see some of the defending we saw at the beginning of the year with more of a counter attacking philosophy instead of just chaarge..
We certainly were not shite under Graham. The team had lost its way a bit toward the end, but the two Championships won with him should not be underestimated. In fact we were only a unlucky defeat to Chelsea away from going the whole season unbeaten (only conceeding 18 goals on the way as well) in the second one. We won cups, including the European Cup Winners, which at the time held some prestiege. Certainly more than today’s Europa lge.
ambition is not the right word. no.
arsenal lack resources. and are realistic about it.
does Ronaldo lack ambition cause he keeps coming in second to messi in player of the year voting? or is he doing the best possible but has to accept that it will be a huge upset for him to win the award against the greatest player of all time.
arsenal are happy finishing 4th cause the three teams we compete with have payrolls 50 to 200 percent higher than us. realistically, when we top them, it is an upset.
once again we see the arguement about 4th with no mention of the 3 other cups we can win.
realistic ambition? not sure about that..
since 2005 theres be a total of 28 trophies we could have won..we lost three finals and sneaked in through the back door 7 times in the other one.
i think our ambition handicapps us to be honest but there you go..
wengeronce said, and I agree, that in football we celebrate winners too much. would arsenals lack of ambition be different if we won the cl in 2006? or the cc two years ago? would those two ten minute spells have made us an ambitious club?
the fact is over the last 8 years we have sometimes finished about richer clubs than us, but never, with the exception of pool, finished below a poorer club.
as for the famous lack of trophies – this years cc final is bradford v swansea. obviously winning it does not imply the ambition to top the football world.
Nando – I don’t really agree with him there. For any top level club (which we are) winning is the goal. It is a sport after all.
Of course a clubs goals need to be within reason, but given our standing and resource winning trophies whould be our aim. Sport is about winning.
its a coincidence wenger once said that and we aint winning anything isnt it?
footballs about winning if it isnt then why do we keep score?
the swansea bradford final?
well theres just another example of not all winners are bankrolled isnt it?
you you honestly trying to tell me we cant win a league cup without dropping out of top four?
Swansea and Braford have both beaten strong teams on route to the final. They are there on merit, not because some of the bigger clubs couldn’t be bothered.
gooner, jon – my point is that a cup competition, especially the cc, does not really capture ambition. I agree that the two teams have beaten decent teams to get here – but winning a competition that in recent years had included finalists like birmingham, portsmouth, swansea, bradford, and spurs does not make me think – oh, we have finally arrived.
yes – football is about winning. kind of. but not really. if arsenal started wasting time in the first half with a 1–0 lead at home against a crap team, we would not be amused even if it did help us win the match.
and lets be honest – saying winning is all that matters ignores the fact that there are 60 clubs in england, only one of which wins the league. are fans of all other clubs wasting their time? are only fans of the big clubs true footie fans?
three rise of man city and chelsea have created huge hurdles for us. that doesn’t mean we are less worthy than before, only that there is more competition than before. if bill gates takes over west ham and pumps 3 billion into the team, I don’t think failing to beat them implies we now suck.
Nando – Which is why is aid winning is what matters to”the bigger clubs”, which we are. Obviously the likes of Villa are not aiming to win the lge. But should we not be? Obviously the likes of City and Chelsea make that very difficult, but if you look at the make up of our clu, that is where we should aiming.
Top player want to win medals. Simple as that. And we have found that out to our detriment in recent years. RvP jumped ship because he thought he had a better chance of winnnig a medal at Manure (I am sure his hike in wages also played a part).
urgh, I meant “why I said”.
All that said maybe AW and the board don’t quite see us in that category (challenging for the lge). That fact that we allowed RvP to go to Manure is testament to that I think. Don’t don’t sell yuor best player to a rival. Maybe they don’t class Manure as a rival at the moment?
Great post, YW. Very thought-provoking.
The Champions League is certainly lacking some of the romance of the old European Cup, but there is a case to be made that the format of the CL makes it more likely to be won by the best team in Europe (or, failing that, Chelsea). Arguably, a pure league format would be the best measure.
In its current incarnation, the CL is caught between formats: it’s one-part league (to guarantee income to the teams that qualify) and one-part cup (for excitement – and to be able to justify its credibility as a link to its predecessor). To me, the result is a bit of a mess (although it does have its moments of excitement).
On the question of “ambition”, to me it seems that Arsenal continue to have ambition to win the League, the CL (winning and qualifying) and the domestic cups. I think that what rankles with some is that the club is unwilling to do some of the things other clubs do (eg use oil money or take on huge debt) to try to achieve those goals.
Isn’t it possible to still strive for a goal, even if it is harder to achieve than it may have been in the past?
manure, chelsea, man city and even Barca – all teams that have recently won titles arsenal aspired to, all have one thing in common – they have and had former arsenal players on their roster when they won those titles. Did those players switch teams to “win things”? Maybe. Did they switch to make more money? In almost all cases, including VP, yes. And not a little more money – a lot more money. You’ll pardon if Im a little skeptical about the top players wanting to win things. Cesc aside, the day a player takes a wage cut to go to a team to “win” things, that day I will admit we are an inferior club.
is Manure a competitor of ours? I think they are a richer club. I think we CAN beat them, but I don’t think we SHOULD beat them.
Let me ask you Gooner – forget about winning the league – consider actually making it into the top 4 – do the other 56 clubs in england lack ambition cause they can’t qualify for the CL? Why don’t they? Why can’t they? Maybe if they just spent some money? How hard can that possibly be?
Or is it really really hard?
Nando – But it is relative isn’t it? All of the clubs can’t have the same aim (to be PL Champs) can they? The issue is; considering the size, stature and revenue of our club, what should our realistic target should be?
That fact that plenty of our players have left and then won medals sorts of justifies their claim really. I have no doubt that higher wages plays a big part in wanting to move, but if you are offered more wages and an increased chance of winning stuff (which is ultimately a top sportsmans aim) who wouldn’t move?
Nothing to do with ‘oil money’. I believe that we can compete with the resources we have.
Haven’t seen any of this defensive naivety people have been going on about (tactically speaking). There were individual mistakes, but not in the last couple of games. We seem to have stopped conceding the first goal too, thank god. When we were conceding early it meant we had no choice but to push forward with everything we had.
I caught the back end of GG. Got respect but no great reverence for him or that kind of football. It’s also impossible to compare teams and achievements as so much has changed over the last 20 years. One thing I’d argue is that the competition in the late-80s early-90s was weaker than it was before or after because of the European ban.
As for this season, I’ve said it before, but three months ago we couldn’t put a passing move together because the players didn’t know each other. You’ve got to take a step back and see how much we’ve improved this season. Right now the quality of the football’s as high as I’ve seen since around 2010 I’d say. If you can’t derive pleasure from that then you might need to pack it in.
No mid-week fixture this week either. We can play the backups against Blackburn and send the first team out fresh against Bayern. Saw some of their game against Schalke.
And bloody hell, Schalke have gone downhill since they beat us! The way I see it, with Dortmund on the slide too, nobody in that league’s given Bayern the kind of challenge they’re going to face against an Arsenal team in full-flight.
Gooner – that’s the thing. Fuck stature – ask liverpool about stature. And size for that matter, which only matters in that it correlates to revenue.
We are clearly the 4th richest club in England at the moment. 4th. and not by a little – by a lot. The gulf in wealth between us and man city and chelsea (and to a lesser degree manure) in terms of wealth is not close.
Arsenal is to man city in terms of wealth as Aston Villa is to Arsenal. And Arsenal is to Manure in terms of wealth as Liverpool is to Arsenal. Think of that, and tell me how preposterous it would be if the managers of Liverpool and Aston Villa – both large clubs, were being lambasted for not finishing ahead of Arsenal this year….
Great post Yogi:
Not sure what you really need a word to substitute for ambition. It makes the point.
Andy:
“All that said maybe AW and the board don’t quite see us in that category (challenging for the lge). That fact that we allowed RvP to go to Manure is testament to that I think. Don’t don’t sell yuor best player to a rival. Maybe they don’t class Manure as a rival at the moment?”
Hard to know what they are really thinking. Arsene’s touchline demeanor still suggests that he wants desperately to win. However, the businessman in him is willing to accept whatever the footballistic consequences as long as he is captain of the ship and running the club in his way. In the end I think his self belief is unshakable and he still thinks he can win using his methods (both on the pitch and off) and he won’t give up no matter how long it takes.
consolsbob – I agree – I think we CAN compete with the resources we have. But I don’t think us not winning is unreasonable…
Now – Man City this year not winning anything and failing to get out of the group stage of the CL after spending what they have spent – that is unreasonable…
I agree with Billy’s Boots.
I don’t agree with the other Bill.
We can compete, we do compete, AW has had us punching above our comparative weight for a while now, and we’ve still come within minutes of winning the CL after all. Not far off the league a few years back either at one stage, before it went pear-shaped. It’s more difficult for us when faced with clubs who have had unlimited funds. This is all goes without saying, but I just don’t think it’s a crime to have pulled up short lately, like Nando has just said, it’s more of a disaster for the Arabian Mancs with the obscene amount of money they have pumped into their, umm, project. That’s “failure”.
We just need to show a little patience. And eventually that patience will be duly rewarded. Can we do that though..
Nando – I do agree with that.
I saw the changes that are suppose to go in to effect with the EPL version of FFP. It is rather curious that the idea behind it is to ensure that clubs remain solvent and yet allowing 105 million pound losses over 3 year periods doesn’t exactly strike me as keeping a club solvent. Sure, for teams with the huge backers that ladel cash has if serving at a soup kitchen it is fine but how does this rule actually achieve the aim?
I don’t think Arsenal lack ambition, I do think Arsene and his players need to take responsbility for some very poor showings. Two clean sheets is a nice roll back, I hope it continues and breeds more confidence in to the team. I think Bayern are going to be an incredibly difficult challenge, I do not expect us to win but football is a funny old mistress and you just never know what can happen on the day.
So insightful thoughts today, keep it up all.